Will same-sex marriage have impact on faith-based organisations? You bet it will

Labour MP Louisa Wall is trying to argue that churches will not be impacted by her same-sex marriage amendment. She is completely wrong.  Just look across the world at international experience on this issue.

Here is just the ‘tip of the iceberg’:

Canadian Court: Marriage officials must marry homosexuals”
January 10, 2011
“The Saskatchewan Court of Appeal declared this morning that proposed legislative amendments that would have allowed Saskatchewan’s marriage commissioners to refuse to perform same-sex ‘marriages’ on religious grounds are unconstitutional.”

“Army: court-martial Chaplains for ‘religious, conscience’ objection to homosexuality”
March 24, 2011
“The U.S. Army has officially threatened military chaplains they must either embrace the new openly homosexual military, resign from service, or face court-martial for their ‘religious, conscience’ objections.”

“Christian Marriage Conference in UK Banned for Opposition to Gay Marriage”
May 14, 2012
“The organizers of a marriage conference in Britain have been told they can no longer hold the event on their regular hired premises because they support the biblical definition of marriage as between one man and one woman.”

“14-year-old homeschooled girl receives death threats for defending marriage”
February 22, 2012
“A 14-year-old homeschooler who testified before the Maryland state senate against a bill redefining marriage has been the subject of cyberbullying, vicious name-calling, and death threats.”

UK Tory MP calls for churches to be banned from holding marriages if they refuse gay couples”
PinkNews, September 2, 2011

“MPs vote to stop civil servants refusing to carry out gay weddings”
November 15, 2011
Dutch MPs voted on Tuesday afternoon for a change in the law to prevent civil servants refusing to conduct gay marriages.”

“Gay rights activist calls for boycott of Salvation Army Christmas fundraiser”
November 28, 2011
“Gay rights activists who object to the Salvation Army’s biblical stance on homosexuality are launching their annual call to shut down the organization’s Christmas fundraiser.”

“A New Jersey judge ruled against a Christian retreat house that refused to allow a same-sex civil union ceremony to be conducted on its premises, ruling the Constitution allows ‘some intrusion into religious freedom to balance other important societal goals’.”
January 12, 2012

Amsterdam chief rabbi suspended for gay stance”
January 18, 2012
“The Orthodox Jewish community of Amsterdam suspended its US-born chief rabbi on Tuesday for cosigning a declaration which said homosexuality was a ‘treatable’ inclination.”

“Attorney Says School Threatened, Punished Boy Who Opposed Gay Adoption”
January 24, 2012
“A 15-year-old Wisconsin boy who wrote an op-ed opposing gay adoptions was censored, threatened with suspension and called ignorant by the superintendent of the Shawano School District, according to an attorney representing the child.”

“Criticize homosexuality in Sweden and go to jail: No problem for European rights court”
February 17, 2012
“Anyone challenging the homosexualist agenda in public in Sweden can be sent to prison, and the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has ruled that this does not constitute any violation of rights. In 2004, the Swedish government charged a group of pamphleteers with ‘agitation against a national or ethnic group,’ a crime that carries a maximum penalty of 2 years in prison.”

Brazilian government demands apology from televangelist for ‘homophobia’”
February 21, 2012
“A Brazilian federal prosecutor is demanding that a televangelist retract certain statements he made in 2011 which the prosecutor says incited ‘hatred’ against homosexuals – a thinly veiled threat of future legal action.”

“Stop Catholic schools from distributing ‘homophobic’ literature: leader of UK’s largest union”
February 27, 2012

“Christian vendor blocked from campus”
March 3, 2012
“Under mounting pressure from pro-‘gay’ activists, the student government at a university in Boston voted down a proposal to bring a Chick-fil-A franchise on campus because the company supports the traditional view of marriage.”

“Christians Who Signed Petitions Investigated”
March 10, 2012
“A prosecutor has decided to pursue and possibly charge members of El Paso area churches who promoted petitions opposing the city administration’s decision to implement benefits for same-sex partners even after voters decided not to allow that.”

“ABC presenter stood down for voicing Katter ad”
Brisbane Times, March 12, 2012
“An ABC radio presenter has been taken off the air after it was revealed she was the voice behind a controversial anti gay marriage television commercial produced for Katter’s Australian Party.”

“Christian minister accused of ‘crime against humanity’ for homosexuality stance”
March 15, 2012
“Two years ago, Scott Lively, author of ‘The Pink Swastika’, addressed members of the Ugandan Parliament, which was considering a bill criminalizing homosexuality. Lively urged an emphasis on therapy rather than punishment, and, after the bill was released he opposed the death penalty provision. Now, on March 14th a lawsuit was filed in an American court alleging that Lively committed the ‘Crime Against Humanity’ by speaking against homosexuality in Uganda.”

“Liberal outrage in Spain: Homosexual groups seek prosecution of bishop over sermon on homosexuality”
April 18, 2012
“Homosexual groups are seeking the prosecution of a Spanish bishop after he gave a sermon repeating the Catholic Church’s teaching.”

Kansas law would force churches to host same-sex ‘weddings,’ receptions”
April 24, 2012
“A proposed ordinance in one of the nation’s most conservative states would force churches to rent their property out for same-sex ‘weddings’ and receptions. It would also force any public venue to allow people to use showers, restrooms, and locker-rooms based on their ‘gender identity,’ rather than their ‘sex at birth’.”

Nebraska football coach: I’d rather be fired than retract homosexuality remarks”
May 3, 2012
“University of Nebraska’s assistant football coach, Ron Brown, who is facing censure and calls for his dismissal for publicly expressing his biblically-based views against the homosexual lifestyle, has stated that he’d rather be fired than retract his comments.”

“UK Catholic Schools Warned of Breaking Law in Opposing Gay Marriage”
May 9, 2012
“The government of Wales is moving against Catholic schools that are organizing students to protest a new government plan to back gay marriage in that country.”

California Considers Legislation Making it a Crime to Counsel Children Not to Be Homosexual”
May 9, 2012
“California Senate Bill 1172 would make it illegal for therapists, psychologists, counselors and parents to engage in any kind of ‘sexual orientation change efforts’ against children 18 and younger. Violators could be subject to arrest, fines, possible jail time.”

Victorian psychiatrist questioned over his stance on gay marriage”
AAP, May 13, 2012
“A psychiatrist lobbying against same-sex marriage must explain why he should retain his role on the board of the state’s equal opportunity agency, critics say.”  He dared to say marriage was between a man and a woman, and children deserve to be raised by their own biological mother and father.

HAT TIP: http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2012/05/15/homosexual-marriage-everything-will-change/

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18 comments for “Will same-sex marriage have impact on faith-based organisations? You bet it will

  1. Kyle Denning
    26 July 2012 at 3:04 pm

    Religion isn’t based on fact and science, so how can it be held true, it simply can’t.
    People deserve to have rights, there’s nothing wrong with same sex Marriages. You don’t have to do it, so why does it matter. How honestly cares what other people do, you should only be concerned about what you do. Let them be and let Gay Marriage be OK.
    The Bible is the biggest fiction novel ever. It may have some wise morals, but how can one force their morals on to others, everyone is different. Different stroke for different fokes. The Human species is the only species on this planet that seems to have a problem with it, other species like the dragon flies, their are some that are gay and some that are straight, the con exists just fine together and so should we humans.
    I’m straight, heterosexual, but I couldn’t care less.

  2. Gabrial
    26 July 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Kyle, just as much as you’re entitled to think the bible is a book of fiction, we are entitled to not agree with same-sex marriage.
    And your comment about dragon flies… may be true… but were not dragon flies. We humans. Completely different, so far different its not even worth comparing.

  3. Jonathan Fletcher
    26 July 2012 at 6:00 pm

    Other species also eat their young… that’s the problem with following animals for moral guidance, or have relative morals – Hitler was also just doing what he thought was morally justified.

  4. Wade
    26 July 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Hi Kyle Denning,

    I would like to see you back up your unsubstantiated claims that “Religion isn’t based on fact and science” and “The Bible is the biggest fiction novel ever”.

    The bible is entirely scientifically accurate. Take for example the fact that the bible teaches that the earth floats in space:

    Job 26:7 (ESV)
    He stretches out the north over the void
    and hangs the earth on nothing.

    Now that is scientifically accurate and, by modern reasoning, Job should not have been capable of knowing this fact.

    Or how about the fossil record? As Ken Ham put it:

    “If Noah’s flood were true you would expect to find millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth, and what do we actually see in the fossil record? Millions of dead things buried in rock layers laid down by water all over the earth!”

    Noahs flood can be scientifically verified.

    I could bring forth more examples where we can verify what the Bible teaches as accurate truth, however people have limited attention spans.

    The upshot of my point is this. If what the Bible teaches is in fact truth, and God is real and Christ died and was raised etc, then we ought to make sure that we know and understand what the Bible teaches as the right way to live and the wrong way to live.

    In relation to the topic, the bible clearly teaches that homosexuality lifestyles are an abomination, and this theme is consistent throughout the old and the New Testaments.

    Leviticus 18:22(ESV)
    You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13(ESV)
    13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

    Romans 1:26-27(ESV)
    26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    You can see from these three simple passages that it is clear what the Bibles stance is on homosexuality.

    Ultimately, homosexuality is just another sin, and we must strive to remove sin from our lives. Would you accept in your society as normal and good behaviour, thieves, adulterers, murderers, paedophiles, baby killers, liars and other various sinful lifestyles?

  5. David Favel
    26 July 2012 at 9:01 pm

    Leviticus? Are you kidding?
    On the same page is – 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
    20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
    And science? But I shall stick only to Leviticus – The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they “chew the cud” but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not “chew the cud.”
    Bats are birds to the biblical God.
    Four-legged fowls are abominations.
    Be sure to watch out for those “other flying creeping things which have four feet.” (I wish God wouldn’t get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You’d think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have!
    God’s law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
    Would you like me to give examples from another book of the bible?

  6. Rhona
    26 July 2012 at 11:42 pm

    I think Dr George’s piece goes too far. It does not restrict its attention to homosexual and lesbian marriage, but also targets anti-discrimination laws.

    There are also dangers with the religious liberty approach- does anyone worry about Jehovahs Witness parents endangering their children through refusing blood transfusions? And apparently, the “Mormon” polygamists in British Columbia also used a ‘religious liberty’ argument. There need to be constraints on unreasonable and harmful religious practises.

  7. Stuart
    27 July 2012 at 1:56 am

    I guess at end of the day it will be people who agree with Gods Word on the subject. differing in opinion from those who don’t. I personally would not want to disagree with God. I have and it led to misery. The Word is to establish Gods laws to keep His children safe from harm and heartache. I cannot see it going so well for those that disagree as much as they protest. Jesus said it all he came to bring life abundantly. It’s only when people understand Gods amazing love for them that want to do what The Bible instructs. I guess people that reject the Bible are really people that reject Jesus. The Bible says that The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. I am
    Thinking if we reject Gods Word we really are rejecting Jesus. That must break Gods heart when He made amazing provision to heal the brokenhearted. I know God loves brokenhearted people. Because he healed my broken heart.

  8. Wade
    27 July 2012 at 4:33 am

    Hi David Favel,
    Thanks for taking the time to respond!
    David said:
    “On the same page is – 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
    20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
    Response:
    I’m not sure what your point with Lev 20:9-10. These are other acts of sin that God has condemned and I believe that we should not accept these practices in our societies either.

    David said:
    “And science? But I shall stick only to Leviticus – The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they “chew the cud” but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not “chew the cud.”
    Response:
    A literal translation of that passage actually says something like “the rabbit eats that which is brought forth again”. Rabbits and hares do in fact “chew the cud”. Not in exactly the same way that cows do, but when a rabbit first eats something, it will pass through its body very rapidly, going through very little digestion. These are the green pellets you will see, if you raise rabbits. The rabbits will then eat these green pellets. You must also realise that the term and classification “ruminants” is a fairly modern classification and does not fit the biblical sense of “chewing the cud” as we ascribe the term in these days. Basically, cud-chewing completes the digestion of partially digested food. Which is exactly what the rabbit does in these instances. Why would it be strange to think that centuries ago, the idea of “cud” had a somewhat broader meaning than a modern definition?
    Does the Bible have an error here? I would say not, rabbits are seen to re-ingest partially digested foods, as do cows etc, only rabbits do it without the multiple stomach compartments.

    David said:
    “Bats are birds to the biblical God.
    Four-legged fowls are abominations.”
    Response:
    This is in reference to Leviticus 11:13-19 where bats are included in a list of “birds”.
    Now, what you have to understand is that the term “bird” in Leviticus 11:13 (as well as Genesis 1:20-30) is translated from the Hebrew word ‘ôp, which literally means “flying creatures”. It is derived from ‘ûp, meaning to “fly, fly about, fly away”. That this word is not used solely for “birds” is evident from Leviticus 11:20-23, where it is used with sherets in reference to “winged creeping things” (ASV), i.e., flying insects.
    The people translating these books to English might be better off translating the word to “flying creatures” or something.
    David said:
    “Be sure to watch out for those “other flying creeping things which have four feet.” (I wish God wouldn’t get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You’d think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have!”
    Response:
    Ok, so in referring to Leviticus 11:23 (it would be nice if you included your scripture references). It would appear to me that what is being referred to in this verse is things like locusts, grasshoppers and crickets. Typically these insects, while the do have six legs, actually on walk on the front four. The two larger rear legs are used for jumping.
    The last pair of legs of many winged insects are specially designed for jumping or “lifting off” and therefore serve a differing function than the other four legs. With millions of species of insects in the world it seems rather presumptuous to try to select just a few and claim that these make a hash of Lev. 11:23. But let’s just take one as an example.
    If you look at the anatomy of the honeybee, you will see clearly enough that the rear legs present an entirely different orientation than the other four. More technically, they serve a different function and have a different structure:
    “The hind legs differ from the other legs in their larger size and broad flattened form. These legs differ in size in the queen, worker & drone. It is only the worker that collects pollen and places it in the pollen baskets on these hind legs. The legs have long curved hairs. The space enclosed by these hairs is called the pollen basket. The worker bees carry pollen to the hive storing in these conclave shaped hind legs. The pollen is collected from the body by the front and middle legs and deposited on the large flat brushes on the inner surfaces of the hind legs. Each of which is covered by 10 transverse rows of stiff spines projecting backwards.”
    Although these legs are used to walk (even as the grasshopper’s can be and are), in function and appearance they are clearly, vastly different. The Hebrews were just as able (and by extension of the same scheme used with grasshoppers, katydids, etc) to regard the back legs of other types of flying insects as being of a different order, of being something different, so that only the first four were called plain old “feet” as only the first four on the hoppers, etc. were called feet, while the others were given a differing name such as “legs above their feet”.
    David said:
    “God’s law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.”
    Response:
    I’m sorry, I am not entirely sure of what point you are trying to make with this reference.
    David said:
    “Would you like me to give examples from another book of the bible?”

    Response:
    Yes please.

    Again, thanks for the thoughtful response David. You present a good example of how it is important to actually study what the Bible says, especially in these areas, so that we may be assured of its veracity and that we can be confident in its truthfulness.

    Regards,

    Wade

  9. David Favel
    27 July 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Wade, the point I was making was that there are 600 or so “laws” that most christians choose to ignore and only cherry pick the laws that they want.
    Eg, punishment of death for …

    Murder
    Adultery
    Bestiality
    Rape
    Sodomy
    One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment is isolated case law. (Numbers 15:32–36)
    A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped
    A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding
    Worshiping other gods
    Witchcraft
    Taking the LORD’s name in vain or cursing his name
    Cursing a parent
    Kidnapping
    If these “laws/commandments” are in the bible, why don’t people practice what they preach?

  10. David Favel
    27 July 2012 at 2:11 pm

    Sorry Wade, law/cure for lepers seems on the face of it to be not overly scientific.

    Re Job, and science, if you read the rest of the book you will summise the earth rests on pillars and doesn’t move (unless God gets angry or something)- 9;6

  11. Rhona
    27 July 2012 at 2:58 pm

    I think the problem is that the pro-homosexual side of this debate could also raise some points of their own from media items or ongoing research.

    -Undesirable or unstable nations that have banned homosexual and lesbian marriage?
    -Overarching bans that ban civil unions as well as homosexual and lesbian marriage (US states)
    -Anti-homosexual activism in Uganda, which permits polygamous marriage, despite pressure from womens groups to criminalise the latter
    -conservative boycotts of liberal corporates that support homosexual/lesbian issues ie Starbucks
    -arrest and harrassment of ministers of faiths that support homosexual/lesbian issues eg Unitarians, in US

    As you can see, they can make their own case from readily available online sources. If one is going down this road, it is better to have a research-based case against what one opposes ie the pro-life movement and abortion/euthanasia

  12. frances
    27 July 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Hi Kyle, If you want to find out what Wade is saying about the bible is true, go to:www.eternal-productions/101science.html. and you will see that the bible is full of scientific facts – there are many things that science has only found out in recent times that were written in the bible thousands of years ago.Ask yourself, how was that possible if there is no God? If you study history you will find that Christianity created western civilization,gave us our laws and the freedom we enjoy today. If you really want to know if God is real, why don’t you just go to Him and ask Him, and if you are really sincere, you will find Him. God said,”My people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge.He also said, “If you search for me with all your heart you will find me”.

  13. wade
    27 July 2012 at 11:52 pm

    Hi David,

    I am glad that I was able to clear up your confusion in the areas of the alleged contradictions/errors in the previously discussed areas.

    David said:
    “ Wade, the point I was making was that there are 600 or so “laws” that most christians choose to ignore and only cherry pick the laws that they want.
    Eg, punishment of death for …
    Murder
    Adultery
    Bestiality
    Rape
    Sodomy
    One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment is isolated case law. (Numbers 15:32–36)
    A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped
    A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding
    Worshiping other gods
    Witchcraft
    Taking the LORD’s name in vain or cursing his name
    Cursing a parent
    Kidnapping
    If these “laws/commandments” are in the bible, why don’t people practice what they preach?”

    Response:
    This is again a very good and pertinent line of questioning!

    A great deal of confusion exists in the religious world concerning what spiritual law man is under today. Some say the old law still is binding—all of it. Others say that most of it has been abolished, but that some of it still is in effect. Many simply pick and choose laws out of both testaments and abide only by those that are appealing to them.
    One thing you MUST come to understand is that the Old Testament Laws were given for the nation of Israel only. They were not commandments and laws meant for the rest of the world, or in fact for the rest of time.

    We can see in Jeremiah that God had said that he would make a new Covenant:
    “Jeremiah 31:31-34 (ESV)
    The New Covenant
    “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.””

    And we can see in the book of Hebrews that the first covenant has become obsolete:
    “Hebrews 8:13 (ESV)
    In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”

    So the commands given to the nation of Israel in the first Covenant do no apply to Christians today. There are some commands that have carried across, and the spirit of the law is the same, however the works of the law have been replaced. So expecting people today to obey and carry out commands not meant for or intended for them is an error in thinking.

    David said:
    “Sorry Wade, law/cure for lepers seems on the face of it to be not overly scientific.”

    Response:
    What you fail to remember, you are talking about what is written in a spiritual book, which is said to have been inspired by an all powerful all knowing God.
    God being God has the power and the ability to miraculously cure disease. If He has proscribed a method of being cured of a disease, which seems unscientific and rather miraculous….this shouldn’t be surprising.

    David said:
    “Re Job, and science, if you read the rest of the book you will summise the earth rests on pillars and doesn’t move (unless God gets angry or something)- 9;6”

    Response:
    The Bible has been written in a number of different styles. Some are in a narrative form, others are poetic, etc. I would contend that this passage of scripture has been written in a poetic form and is not intended to be taken scientifically literally.

    The term “pillars” is obviously used figuratively here, and is often used with reference to strength and beauty. And in the case of this passage of scripture, in context, it is being used to demonstrate the power of God, rather than a scientific description of the earth.

    I hope these answers have helped to clear up some confusion for you.

    Getting back to the main topic of Homosexual marriage, going on the premise that God is real, the Bile contains His will, we can clearly see in a simple study of the Bible whats Gods position is on homosexuality.

    Put simply, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

    To be honest, there isn’t a lot in the New Testament on Gods thoughts on homosexuality, however we can easily see, when the New Testament speaks of marital relationships, it always speaks of Husband and Wife.

    According to the Bible marriage is to be between a husband (man) and a wife (woman). According to Hebrews 13:4 any sexual relationship outside of that union is “adultery” or “fornication” (which is sin – Gal.5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:9-10), regardless of whether it is heterosexual, homosexual, bestial (etc.).
    Regarding the Old Testament Paul said, “For whatever things were written before were written for our learning,…” (Rom. 15:4). “Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition,…” (1 Cor. 10:11). (Also
    read 1 Cor.10:5-8). With specific reference to our topic, Jude says, “as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” (Jude 7). Additionally, Peter said, “and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly” (2 Pet. 2:6).

    And again, we can clearly see that the New Testament see’s homosexual behaviour as “vile” or “shameful” or “dishonourable”

    Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)
    For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    Regards,
    Wade

  14. Rhona
    28 July 2012 at 6:16 pm

    Wade, while you and I may be devout Christians of whatever denomination we respectively belong to, merely citing particular scriptural verses will not convince those of the non-Christian general public.

    For that matter, while I have a great deal of respect for the Catholic natural law tradition and personally believe in it, sadly we live in a secularised and science-dominated world and must use secular and scientific arguments to make gains in political debate.

  15. Wade
    28 July 2012 at 8:44 pm

    Hi Rhona,

    I do not believe I have “merely cited” scripture verses to try and prove my point.

    The thrust of my point has been that the bible is scientifically accurate, and further to that, it tells the truth. This was in response to the claims made about the bible earlier in the discussion. And further to that, if the bible is what it claims then we need to heed its teachings.

    Science and the bible are NOT mutually exclusive, people need to be shown that the bible is scientifically accurate.

    The general non-believing public have the same misconceptions that David and Kyle have brought up. We must be in a position to answers these very pertinent and important challenges that people have.

    We cannot take what the bible teaches on merely faith alone!

    The Berens were highly praised in scripture for their efforts in checking scripture to see if what they were being told was in fact the truth. They did not just believe, they tested and checked to ensure that what they were being taught was in fact Gods word.

    Unfortunately, for people like David and Kyle, you can almost guarantee that they have never had an encounter with anyone that can or will respond to their challenges with credible responses.

    And that is not fair to them. They deserve better than what much of denominational “Christianity” has to offer them.

    Most of the “Christians” that David and Kyle will have encountered will have been the “I don’t need facts, I just have faith” type. The type that are accurately accused of having a “blind faith”. These types of “Christians” do us all a disservice with their unwillingness and inability to accurately and honestly defend the faith that they have.

    1 Peter 3:15(ESV)
    but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

    Now Rhona, a question for you. Could you have, in all honesty, answered the alleged errors and contradictions that both David and Kyle raised?

    And if not, why not?

    Regards,

    Wade

  16. Cosmic Bob
    29 July 2012 at 1:39 pm

    Where in the bible does it speak out against pedophilia and baby killing? From what I have read in the bible, the god, Yahweh and his followers certainly did a fair amount of that.

    The bible is a complete collection of allegory initially passed from person to person by word of mouth and copied over and over again by hand and is replete with passages advocating slavery, pedophilia, rape and murder in the name of the “one true god”. Anyone who has ever played a game called “Broken Telephone” will easily see how this can affect the integrity of such a “message”. The earliest manuscript we have of the new testament is a small passage (not even a full page) dating to a good 4 to 5 decades after Jesus was supposed to have been crucified. This has resulted in thousands inconsistencies in the canon. If you want to hear the history of the bible from an actual historian and bible scholar spend some time listening to a lecture by Bart Ehrman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d4Mf0KfNHI) who is far more qualified than I to speak further on this matter. He has also written a few books on the subject if you prefer not to trust Youtube.

    Sorry, the bible is not and never will be able to held as a scientific document as science has progressed and changed as we have grown to understand the natural order more and more (which is great because science is self-correcting) where religion has often been forced, kicking and screaming, into trying to adapt it’s ideas to our increasing knowledge. Examples? The crusades, the persecution by the church of Galileo, the destruction of the Great Library of Alexandria. There are many examples over history.

    Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence in order for them to be considered as true, and your religion, along with all the other thousands of religions out there are found wanting of even mediocre evidence.

    This gives religion absolutely no ground to attempt to dictate how, and with whom individuals should decided to have sex with.

    Not my business, not your business, not anyone else’s. These religious bigots really need to wind their necks in.

  17. Rhona
    29 July 2012 at 3:43 pm

    I could have, my dear, but they are inapplicable to the current subject under discussion, homosexual and lesbian marriage. And your comments are sadly tangential to that. This is not a debate about the obvious and commendable sincerity of Christian belief.

  18. Wade
    30 July 2012 at 8:47 pm

    Hi Cosmic Bob,

    please, if you can, provide the specific scripture references you are referring to when making claims such as “From what I have read in the bible, the god, Yahweh and his followers certainly did a fair amount of that.”

    That will much easier to discuss your points of contention.

    I watched the youtube video. I have a few problems with what this guy is saying:

    1: The scriptures claim to be inspired. Jesus promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles to remember all that Christ said and to guide them to all truth. Now obviously, if you don’t believe, you will ignore this point entire and try to approach the subject from a “naturalistic” point of view.

    Following Ehrman’s criteria for what counts as historically reliable
    sources, nothing would be known about anything that happened in the
    distant past anywhere ever. That’s a very skeptical view of history,
    not just the Gospels. Even if we must be skeptical of all ancient
    literature, the Gospels would count as being the best historical works
    ever – given Ehrman’s own criteria. Not only were they written near
    the events they record, but we have copies of those original documents
    that date close to the time they were written.

    2: He makes claims that the authors of the books are not who the books are titled as. But he does not provide any evidence for this claim. He says that they were written by “Highly educated rhetorically trained writers, probably not disciples” …… “probably”….he does not know…..this is his best guess at who he thinks wrote the books.

    3: Next he says: “Where did these people get their stories from? Well IF they were not disciples, they must have heard them from somebody…” As per the previous point, his claims are all conjecture and best guess efforts. He does not have any evidence that the authors of the NT books are anyone other than who the modern bible claims that they are. So, what IF the authors of the books were the people that it is claimed that they are?

    What if?

    4: Next he goes on about how the stories were changed and improved and modified. However, this is another claim that he does not back up with evidence. From all of the tens of thousands of manuscripts and fragments that we do have, what was written is consistent. Again, he gives little to no evidence of his claims. The alleged contradictions that he raises can easily be explained away

    5: Another point is this, if you go back to the beginning of his video, he claims that historians all want different independent sources for the information and that the bible comes from one source, so it isnt reliable. Then a little later on he talks about “Where did these people get their stories from? Well IF they were not disciples, the must have heard them from somebody, who heard the stories from somebody..etc”

    So what he is saying here, effectively, is that he doesn’t know what the source/sources of the gospels was. If the stories were passed on, it could have come from multiple independent sources, and this clown wouldn’t know it.

    6: For the alleged contradiction between John and Mark regarding the death of Christ. Jn 19:14 tells us that Jesus was led away to be crucified on “the Preparation Day of the Passover,” which suggests a date
    of 14 Nisan, not 15 Nisan as in the Synoptics. And yet John agrees with the Synoptics that Jesus died on a Friday, i.e., the day
    before the Sabbath (19:31). Many different explanations have been offered for this apparent discrepancy. At least two options
    resolve the apparent discrepancy.

    Option 1: John places the commencement of Passover on a different day. Temple officials may have been slaughtering lambs well into Friday, and so Friday could still be counted as an official Preparation Day for the Passover, as well as a Preparation Day for the Sabbath. The effect is the same: Jesus died on Friday afternoon, 15 Nisan, AD 30.

    Option 2: Jn 19:14 can reasonably be read as shorthand for “the preparation Day of the [Sabbath, which was also on the] Passover,” or “the Preparation Day of the [Sabbath, which happened to occur during that year’s] Passover.” A closely related suggestion is that John means “the Preparation Day of the [entire] Passover [week, i.e., the Feast of the Unleavened Bread].” Any of these readings would bring John and the Synoptics in line with a Friday, 15 Nisan, AD 30 date for the death of Jesus.

    7: With the time issues, it is easily explained. Mark in his text tells us the crucifixion took place on the 3rd hour using the Jewish reckoning of time, which means around 9 AM in the morning. The Jews measured time by breaking the day into 12 hours twice, with an additional 4 watches in each 12 hour period. The new day in Jewish time began at sunset and the morning began at sun up approx.6 AM.

    What we need to understand is that John is writing from Asia Minor at least 30 years after the events transpired 70-95 A.D. When John wrote his Gospel the Jewish temple was destroyed and the nation was scattered. So everyone was now under Roman influence, whereas before they existed partly under Rome still functioning as Israel. So when he wrote there was no more Jewish standard of time only Roman. So John used the official Roman mode of computing time. The 6th hour would be 6 AM as they counted the day from 12 midnight as we still do today. This would coincide exactly with the other writers who used the Jewish reckoning of time. The trial was early in the morning and the crucifixion approximately began at 9:00 in the morning lasting until 3 in the afternoon. So John consistently used Roman time while the other Gospel writers use the Jewish standard. Therefore there is no conflict in the accounts.

    The other alleged contradictions can be explained as well.

    I would also like to point out that those of us who are believers are allowed to voice our opinion on what we would like to see happening in our society.

    We have a right to voice our opinion, just as the sodomites are allowed to voice their desires.

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